Number of Team Mines

[hallucination]

What do you think?



Question/Speculation: If this were changed without you being told, how long do you think it would take you to notice?

How long for _anyone_ to notice such a change?



--hallu

[Audry]

I think the number should get higher as the freq size get higher BUT with a certain maximum of mines to reach.



And yes, with Gad around, it will get noticed pretty quickly heh

[PsyOps]

I've always enjoyed mine repping. I say leave it be.





Aud, wheres my pie?

[Gadianton]

I think that i should always be able to lay 5 mines no matter if i am alone or with other people. If I join a freq with other people why should I be punished and not allowed to lay 5 mines?

[PsyOps]

Well svs has always limited team mines, but you only really notice when the team goes crazy mining. I think svs settings are ok. My guess as to why they had it that way was maybe to involve the team more. Personally i'm debating 2 mines per person in my zone vs the 3 mines i have set already per person. I feel less mines will include the team even more, but as far as the team max mines, mine will stay 12.

[Ethylene!]

[quote name='Audry' timestamp='1301632810' post='274204']

I think the number should get higher as the freq size get higher BUT with a certain maximum of mines to reach.



And yes, with Gad around, it will get noticed pretty quickly heh

[/quote]



People that don't play in the zone should not get a vote regardless if they are a zone sysop or not. In fact, it makes it even worse that a zone sysop doesn't play in the very zone they are a staff member. In a game where staff are looking for more players you would think that all staff members would actually play, seems odd when they don't or maybe in this case can't play the game.

[Nude For Satan]

I don't even know what the current setting is. All I know is that if I'm on my own, I can lay 5 mines, if I'm not, I should be conscious that if I lay heaps of mines, my teammates may be adversely affected.



What I'd like to see is to have mines tied to 100 nrg in the same way AW is tied to 1 nrg. So if I laid 5 mines - in a bank or in any other manner - I'd be dealing with 1100 max nrg until some of them exploded or expired.



Tell me that's not an awesome idea. Ha! You can't! 'cause it IS!

[Capefire]

This was done because of Gad's turrets make no mistake about it. It should be the same and never been touched in the first place. Secondly no one told anyone which is b.s., so if there is a 4 man turret each man is only allowed 2 MINES EACH thats absurb !

[Jazz]

I dont really see a reason to change the number of team mines to be honest <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />

Im aware that if im on a larger freq, then i may have less mines, so i keep that in mind while im playing <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



PsyOps mentioned having limited mines per person. That seems like a better idea to me than less TEAM mines.

On the occasions when i mine, i usually just drop single mines. If its strategic placement, i leave a max of two piles of 2 mines ..... with 1 held in reserve in case i need it <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':happy:' /> . Less individual mines would affect me, but PsyOps idea would affect solo mine reppers alot more.

[Gadianton]

As a mine repping pro.... you have to have at least 4+ mines to get a good mine rep kill. a 3 mine stacks just wont do the job in most cases. So change the setting to 2 or 3 mines and you might as well ban the mine repping play style and tell those people to leave the zone. As it is with Hallu's cutting the mine life in 1/2 (he cut the time from 2 minute to 1 minute of how long a mine stays alive and didnt tell anyone for weeks) he has already made it very difficult to even get a mine rep. It makes it even HARDER to do solo. only a turret with multiple people can even get a mine stack down fast enough to have time to try and get a mine rep.



you have to lay a full stack of mines, recharge your energy to be safe, and get someone near your mine stack in 60 seconds before the mines disappears. O and by the way his logic that this modification was to help newbies... total bull*&^$#$#$. Mines are the NUMBER 1 way that new people to the zone can even get a kill. A new person enters the zone he isn't going to be able to out fly a pro player, however he can lay mines and then hope and pray he gets a kill. But now its very hard for a newbie to get 4 mines down and try to get a mine rep before they start to disappear on him.



i think its interesting that lately hallu is changing the mine life time, the number of mines that can be dropped and other turret settings. however he isn't running around cutting the EMP damage of the weasel in 1/2, or removing fast fire rate from ship 8. hmmm its almost like he is targeting a play style.... hmmmmm

[Nude For Satan]

One of the problems I see in cutting the lifecycle of a mine, is that when you're hunting/chasing someone who has laid mines, you can avoid his mines and then feel secure that he can't drop any more for a while.



With the lower mine-life, a runner can get their full compliment of mines back on his ship quicker, because those he's laid will expire sooner. So in one way, it kind of defeats the purpose, so I'm actually (surprisingly) against lower mine lives.

[Gadianton]

[quote name='Nude For Satan' timestamp='1301711077' post='274240']

One of the problems I see in cutting the lifecycle of a mine, is that when you're hunting/chasing someone who has laid mines, you can avoid his mines and then feel secure that he can't drop any more for a while.



With the lower mine-life, a runner can get their full compliment of mines back on his ship quicker, because those he's laid will expire sooner. So in one way, it kind of defeats the purpose, so I'm actually (surprisingly) against lower mine lives.

[/quote]



Great point nude.

[Jazz]

[quote name='Nude For Satan' timestamp='1301711077' post='274240']

One of the problems I see in cutting the lifecycle of a mine, is that when you're hunting/chasing someone who has laid mines, you can avoid his mines and then feel secure that he can't drop any more for a while.



With the lower mine-life, a runner can get their full compliment of mines back on his ship quicker, because those he's laid will expire sooner. So in one way, it kind of defeats the purpose, so I'm actually (surprisingly) against lower mine lives.

[/quote]



Thats a good point NFS. You would have to think about more mines being dropped in your face.

How long do mines last out there in the main regions of activity ? Unless its an individual mine that was also dropped while on the run, most are placed in areas of high traffic to catch the unwary. Longer times would mean they stay there much longer. Which means the miner doesnt have to come back to replenish them as often. In addition, mines in the active areas tend to get run over or repelled away more frequently, so the person placing mines gets replenished anyway. Consider also that mine reppers (especially the cloaked variety) can now sit and wait for much longer periods of time for a target to repel, without having to use energy to replace their mine stack.





So considering those two views, i would say on balance, i prefer the shorter times. <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':happy:' />



Yes its a pain in the ass to consider mines being dropped in your face by someone youre chasing, but you can avoid those. And most of the time if its too close, youd repel them anyway (thus replenishing the runners supply). <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />

[Gadianton]

[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301754570' post='274244']

i prefer the shorter times.

[/quote]

i prefer weasels with emp bombs that do 1/2 damage.

i prefer weasels only have level 1 bombs

i prefer weasels didnt ever get rockets.



Point is that mines have always lasted for 2 minutes. If you want to mess with the mines why not mess with the Weasels settings and hurt the hunters favorite ship?



Cutting the time in 1/2 helps hunters and hurts other play styles.



o ya i forgot this is a hunter only zone. all other play styles should be criticized to death, and the settings should be modified to kill them.

[PsyOps]

You have blinders on Gad. No matter what changes happen you will not give up until all your demands get met exactly the way you want. What i don't understand is how you manage to lame perfectly well in the current settings and yet you still complain. If you do not like the way it is, then go somewhere else. You have many many suggestions, why not create your own zone. Although many of the changes have been minor to the original SVS settings, Chaos has been and always will be SVS. I can assure you that even though you hate chaos and its settings now, you would hate them more if they went back to TRUE svs. With all the time and energy you have put into complaining about chaos and its' staff you could have created many arenas and bots. Why not create a map, settings, and possibly a bot to go along with it- u supplied you with a core that you could make a bot with(u once knew VB). If anyone was to approach hallu with a complete project to include everything i mentioned, i do not see why he wouldn't use them for an event once a week(as long as it didn't conflict with any other event. At least that way you could have your way once a week. Do something with all that built up energy that you have.



Ill try not to post anymore on gad hate. Im not here to bash on gad =).



-PsyOps

[Jazz]

lol Psyops <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

I think everyones entitled to give an opinion and suggestions and see what others have to say about it. I think wed all like to see how/if the game can be improved. So its fair to dispute and/or discuss points being made.







[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1301757031' post='274246']

[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301754570' post='274244']

i prefer the shorter times.

[/quote]

i prefer weasels with emp bombs that do 1/2 damage.

i prefer weasels only have level 1 bombs

i prefer weasels didnt ever get rockets.



Point is that mines have always lasted for 2 minutes. If you want to mess with the mines why not mess with the Weasels settings and hurt the hunters favorite ship?



Cutting the time in 1/2 helps hunters and hurts other play styles.



o ya i forgot this is a hunter only zone. all other play styles should be criticized to death, and the settings should be modified to kill them.

[/quote]



Actually Gadianton, i commented earlier somewhere that i think the weasels are a bit strong with their ability to fire emps and immediate L3 guns. Also the shark with its rapid L3 rate of fire. Even the terriers dual L3 guns are a pain in the ass <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drinks:' /> But thats related to another thread, so your comment should be placed there.

So to paraphrase from that whole post, the only part related to this topic is that 'its always been 2 mins, so should always stay the same' ? Then theres a random unsupported claim that you yourself essentially disagree with (from the previous post of yours i quoted shown below). And lastly some drama about how youre a victim (?) because ppl criticize your "style" ? <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':happy:' />





Cutting mine time doesnt HELP hunters or hurt runners .... runners get them back quicker as NFS pointed out, and YOU agreed with. So if anything, it HELPS runners.







You didnt address any of the points i posted, instead you just made a weak unsupported argument to something you actually already agreed helped runners and hurt chasers anyway. And what are these other playing 'styles' that get hurt ? How/why ? Youre being too vague. <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

I mentioned some styles in my own post that you couldve referenced.

It DOES hurt mine reppers (especially the cloaked mine repper). It DOES hurt ppl who place minestacks in active areas then leave to wait before it needs replenishing. However, its not exactly something that would PREVENT those tactics if someone wanted to do them, but would make it a LITTLE more difficult.

It DOESNT hurt fighters (difference between that and 'hunters'), it DOESNT even hurt/prevent players laying a minestack in the main areas (they can still do it, replenish it if needed, or discard). And as has already been said, it DOESNT hurt runners or hunters (though the latter has to be more cautious).



So i'll re-post the previous comment too ...... ive given specifics of who it would help and hurt and how/why. So now id like to hear what are these other 'styles' that you think are being hurt and also how/why ? Im just asking for more information (from ANYONE), because you may have points noones thought of that are important to consider and could open some discussion. But if youre going to be really VAGUE without anything to support your claims, then im going to infer that you CANT actually think of any specifics and DONT have a real argument. <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />





[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301754570' post='274244']

[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1301745846' post='274243']

[quote name='Nude For Satan' timestamp='1301711077' post='274240']

One of the problems I see in cutting the lifecycle of a mine, is that when you're hunting/chasing someone who has laid mines, you can avoid his mines and then feel secure that he can't drop any more for a while.



With the lower mine-life, a runner can get their full compliment of mines back on his ship quicker, because those he's laid will expire sooner. So in one way, it kind of defeats the purpose, so I'm actually (surprisingly) against lower mine lives.

[/quote]



Great point nude.

[/quote]



Thats a good point NFS. You would have to think about more mines being dropped in your face.

How long do mines last out there in the main regions of activity ? Unless its an individual mine that was also dropped while on the run, most are placed in areas of high traffic to catch the unwary. Longer times would mean they stay there much longer. Which means the miner doesnt have to come back to replenish them as often. In addition, mines in the active areas tend to get run over or repelled away more frequently, so the person placing mines gets replenished anyway. Consider also that mine reppers (especially the cloaked variety) can now sit and wait for much longer periods of time for a target to repel, without having to use energy to replace their mine stack.





So considering those two views, i would say on balance, i prefer the shorter times. <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />



Yes its a pain in the ass to consider mines being dropped in your face by someone youre chasing, but you can avoid those. And most of the time if its too close, youd repel them anyway (thus replenishing the runners supply). <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

[/quote]

[Caerbannog]

[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1301635657' post='274206']

I think that i should always be able to lay 5 mines no matter if i am alone or with other people. If I join a freq with other people why should I be punished and not allowed to lay 5 mines?

[/quote]



So that you have to choose between teammates and being able to lay 5 mines when you want to.

You were never supposed to get everything for free in this game / zone.



I'd guess the standard of 12 also had something to do with having 90 or 120 players on 7 man freqs (mostly) and the maximum number of overall projectiles on a map. Or maybe it was just a sophisticated guess and an arbitrary number of mines it took to cover large areas <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':happy:' />

[Ninja Cat]

Interesting topic for discussion.



I guess that the amount of mines being set to 12 would have also be linked to team sizes since back then it would have been rare to have 4 teams with 1 person per team. So now you will have a potential 48 mines placed instead of what would essentially have been 24 mines due to the now flexed team sizes.



Applying x mines per person would take away the whole point of it being a team. If you do not want to play as part of a team then go on your own private team. Teammates are there to play along with and not there to have less people to run away from!



I would say that the amount of mines should now be flexed based on population. However my reasoning, unlike some, is not to annoy the long term players but to help any new player into the zone during low populations. I highly doubt they would stick around for long when every time they find someone to shoot at they get mined repped to death.



Having flexible settings would also allow 12 mines (and potentially more!) to be set for when there is enough people in the arena to make it fun.



- Ninja Cat

[Caerbannog]

[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1301757031' post='274246']

[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301754570' post='274244']

i prefer the shorter times.

[/quote]

i prefer weasels with emp bombs that do 1/2 damage.

i prefer weasels only have level 1 bombs

i prefer weasels didnt ever get rockets.



Point is that mines have always lasted for 2 minutes. If you want to mess with the mines why not mess with the Weasels settings and hurt the hunters favorite ship?



Cutting the time in 1/2 helps hunters and hurts other play styles.



o ya i forgot this is a hunter only zone. all other play styles should be criticized to death, and the settings should be modified to kill them.

[/quote]



By your "it was always this way" logic, your half the damage level 1 EMPs should not be the case, or your preference.

Also I see where you might be coming with the thought that level 1 EMPs would be weaker on a weasel, since you fight from one screen away, but level 1 EMPs with the ability to fire bullets right after (and then throw in another bomb that costs very little to fire) are goddamn lethal at close range.



You know, like the shark was for a while before what it is now? Although it had _increased_ cost of firing bullets, and shitty recharge. Didn't you call it the lamest ship of them all?

[hallucination]

The mine times (2 min down to 1 min) and number of team mines (12 down to 8 ) were changed when the Flag with upgrades/downgrades was put in -- this was an experiment to try and re-balance the overpowered mine stacks possible with the flag bomb upgrade.



[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301631368' post='274203']

How long for _anyone_ to notice such a change?

[/quote]

Answer: 29 days. When I put in the change, I thought they would be noticed in no more than two days time, and probably within hours (that was the guess of others I asked also). The mine time change was noticed within two days (not the first day). I was very surprised when the team mine limit change was not noticed -- my prediction was very short -- yet it was quite long before anyone noticed.



About changes: when doing user testing, one needs to collect objective data. When the user is informed of changes, the data is no longer objective, but biased. If a change is made, but the observed behavior does not change, then that shows the change has little/no effect. No one noticing this change, or changing their behavior for 29 days shows that the change was a minor one. That's interesting information.



Now that the experiment is complete and we have the data, number team mines will be changed back to 12 and mine times will be back to 2 minutes at the next reset. Based on observation, I think these minor changes would probably do little to help with the 'new player leaving' issue (see below).



12 mines per team was the standard SVS setting with 7 man freqs. That works out to less than 2 mines per person -- so that was the game design decision back then based on that much larger population. I remember leaving freqs where the other people would use all the mines (doing mine stacks and such) - I wanted to have at least one available for mining chasers. I would favor having the number of mines change with the freqsize, but will not implement that at this time.



It also appears that some people erroneously believe that many settings changes have been made during the past year. This is simply not the case. Here are the facts -- changes made in the last year:

1) shark -- this was a fairly major change

2) bty increase for kill -- raised from 6 to 12, and now to 20.

3) bouncing bomb damage percentage -- I found that somewhere in the last several years, someone nerfed the bouncing bomb damage to 80% of normal (which is interesting in light of lanc usage being in the tank). I've set it back to SVS normal of 100%.



[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1301674645' post='274233']

Mines are the NUMBER 1 way that new people to the zone can even get a kill.

[/quote]

That might be true for intermediate players, but it is not true for *actual* new players, who have no idea what a mine is. We lose the vast majority of people in the first 5-10 minutes of play (that's what 'new player' means) -- getting mine repped and dying instantly is a significant way that we lose these new players. No one likes dying suddenly and without understanding why. It's not fun, seems unfair, and so they leave.



Please be assured that mine repping is part of Chaos and will not be removed. But it is most decidedly not newb friendly. It is the only "one shot kill" we have in Chaos, and is the most risk-free way to get kills (which is why many pilots do not respect that style of play) -- these reasons are why mine stacks and mine repping are not a part of more 'skill based' SVS play such as League.



--hallu