03-29-2011, 07:45 PM
[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301390083' post='274139']
Hallu, what is your opintion on a three man turret when there are 6 people in the zone? Do you think it drives players away? What do you think about newbies joining the zone and being owned by a three man turret when they are on a freq by themselves. Mind you, i am talking about turrets during times of low populations only.
[/quote]
First, spending too much time focusing on very low population problems is not a good use of our time imo. It is better spent focusing on how to increase the population.
Now, on freqsizes, I'll repeat what I've said since Chaos-Bot started controlling them more than 10 yrs ago.
I think players staying for more than a couple of minutes on an X person freq when the freqsize is less than that, are unsportsmanlike -- whether they are turreting or not. It demonstrates they are more concerned with winning rather than playing fairly/on a level playing field. The one situation I can think where it could be justifiable to stay on a higher person freq is if you're in a hotly contested flag game with another freq of the same size (until the game ends) -- that occurrence is quite rare (ever?) since in a hotly contested game the population rarely drops much.
It does appear to drive people away at times, but other times not. A high bty target can draw people in to play.
At least when a newbie gets killed by a several man turret, he can see that it's several people aligned against him with lots of firepower. This is better than getting killed by a mine repper (or worse, a cloaked mine repper) as the newbie will have no idea how/why he died in one shot. A mine repping turret falls into this category.
Things that could be done:
1) Do what we've always done in Chaos to lamers -- call them out publicly for it and hunt them down mercilessly.
2) I have requested and continue to request that vet pilots voluntarily redistribute freqs when they get smaller.
3) Force people off freqs when the freqsize reduces. I've never liked this as a solution because it is going to make people mad and they will leave (in addition to some gnarly bot logic to make this happen properly in all situations -- it's ugly and punishing however it would be done). What usually happens is that people leave the freq voluntarily and freqs naturally redistribute on their own.
4) Not reduce freqsize until all freqs are down to that size. This way, for example, if there is a three man turret out there, you can gather a three man hunt freq even if the freqsize should be two.
5) Leave as is. In the vast majority of situations, the way it works now is fine.
I see mine repping as a far bigger problem than a few man turrets that run when a single pilot chases them. Mine repping used to be done to a certain extent, but nothing like it is these days -- talk about the lamers that would get called out and hounded down. Turrets that mine rep as a style of play was something that virtually never occurred in the old days -- mining, yes; mine repping as a strategy, no.
Why do we see so much mine repping now? Mine repping is an almost riskless way to play. You can !bonus more reps. There are a bazillion greens to get more reps. 50 start bty. It is a very easy way to get a high ratio - no actual fighting involved!
I see mine repping as a bad game design since it is the only 'one shot kill' we have in Chaos -- should have none imo. It's easily avoided by vets, but is very bad for newbs -- and newbs is what the zone needs. One could argue that bursts are also one shot kills, but it's harder to kill someone from full nrg with the burst strength today (SVS was 550 per burst bullet; it's been 350 per burst bullet for a very long time now) -- it's more obvious to a newb how they died (many orange bullets!!!).
[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301417827' post='274144']
ok im a bit confused <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' />
My apologies if i misqoted, it wasnt intentional. But i didnt keep logs and copy paste our discussion.
I said 'there will never be changes made to turrets. I think you need to reduce turrets to 2 ppl (pilot and 1 gunner)', and you said 'not a chance. chaos has always had large turrets and always will'
Sounds remotely similar to me <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' /> never be changes made to turrets and chaos has always had large turrets and always will
We're not dealing with the same 80-100ppl zones anymore. And probably never will. Incidentally, the original zone never had bonuses, or flags, or any of the other things that were added MUCH later. I wasnt a regular player of chaos, but i dont remember those being part of the zone.
You wanted to hear what i thought, and i told you.
Post the rest of our discussion too if you want. I also asked about when we might see some of these ideas being implemented, and when the announcement would be (after you told me thered be an announcement prior to any changes). I cant remember your exact wording, but you told me not to 'badger' you and i seem to remember some veiled comment along the lines of i might not like the outcome ? <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' /> Your post of the logs will clarify if need be <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
Youre asking for our feedback and ideas, i dont see why we cant ask about a timeframe. You said it was still undecided and also that any changes will only be made at a reset (which im sure most of us already aware of anyway). Thats fine. But when will there be a decision ?
And its not like anything has to be PERMANENT <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> You can still try out various ideas to see how it goes <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Obviously other changes were tried out to varying degrees of acceptance.
[/quote]
You never said "there will never be changes made to turrets" or anything similar in our conversation - perhaps you thought it but did not state it. The choice between "[color="#1C2837"]chaos has always had large turrets and always will" and "no changes to turrets ever" is a false dichotomy -- there are many more possibilities. If you or anyone else is interested in learning more about what's possible, you can start here: [/color][url="http://www.minegoboom.com/server/ssos.html"]http://www.minegoboo...erver/ssos.html[/url] I'm of course willing to listen to any ideas on the topic.
[color="#1C2837"]I have many private conversations with people in the zone and out -- I value creativity, clarity of thought and the ability to express them coherently/concisely and also the ability to listen (just to name a few). I don't value being asked the same question multiple times when I've already answered it. You can ask about a timeframe, but if the answer is 'undecided' then that's the answer. <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> If you ask "when" and I say "undecided" and then you say "yes, but WHEN?" -- that's badgering to me. [/color][color="#1C2837"]And my further comment was not veiled in any way -- I said it would backfire. If you (or anyone) tries to get more info from me by doing that, you'll probably get less (via private conversation at least). Overall our conversation was a good one I think.[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]Also, fyi I did not say changes "only at a reset" I said "I usually do major changes at a reset" -- my positions are rarely absolute (ok so limiting turret size is an absolute <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />) and I'm always willing to listen to specific, coherent, concrete, and feasible ideas.[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]Thank you for the comment on "[/color]has to be PERMANENT" -- that's always my position.
--hallu
Hallu, what is your opintion on a three man turret when there are 6 people in the zone? Do you think it drives players away? What do you think about newbies joining the zone and being owned by a three man turret when they are on a freq by themselves. Mind you, i am talking about turrets during times of low populations only.
[/quote]
First, spending too much time focusing on very low population problems is not a good use of our time imo. It is better spent focusing on how to increase the population.
Now, on freqsizes, I'll repeat what I've said since Chaos-Bot started controlling them more than 10 yrs ago.
I think players staying for more than a couple of minutes on an X person freq when the freqsize is less than that, are unsportsmanlike -- whether they are turreting or not. It demonstrates they are more concerned with winning rather than playing fairly/on a level playing field. The one situation I can think where it could be justifiable to stay on a higher person freq is if you're in a hotly contested flag game with another freq of the same size (until the game ends) -- that occurrence is quite rare (ever?) since in a hotly contested game the population rarely drops much.
It does appear to drive people away at times, but other times not. A high bty target can draw people in to play.
At least when a newbie gets killed by a several man turret, he can see that it's several people aligned against him with lots of firepower. This is better than getting killed by a mine repper (or worse, a cloaked mine repper) as the newbie will have no idea how/why he died in one shot. A mine repping turret falls into this category.
Things that could be done:
1) Do what we've always done in Chaos to lamers -- call them out publicly for it and hunt them down mercilessly.
2) I have requested and continue to request that vet pilots voluntarily redistribute freqs when they get smaller.
3) Force people off freqs when the freqsize reduces. I've never liked this as a solution because it is going to make people mad and they will leave (in addition to some gnarly bot logic to make this happen properly in all situations -- it's ugly and punishing however it would be done). What usually happens is that people leave the freq voluntarily and freqs naturally redistribute on their own.
4) Not reduce freqsize until all freqs are down to that size. This way, for example, if there is a three man turret out there, you can gather a three man hunt freq even if the freqsize should be two.
5) Leave as is. In the vast majority of situations, the way it works now is fine.
I see mine repping as a far bigger problem than a few man turrets that run when a single pilot chases them. Mine repping used to be done to a certain extent, but nothing like it is these days -- talk about the lamers that would get called out and hounded down. Turrets that mine rep as a style of play was something that virtually never occurred in the old days -- mining, yes; mine repping as a strategy, no.
Why do we see so much mine repping now? Mine repping is an almost riskless way to play. You can !bonus more reps. There are a bazillion greens to get more reps. 50 start bty. It is a very easy way to get a high ratio - no actual fighting involved!
I see mine repping as a bad game design since it is the only 'one shot kill' we have in Chaos -- should have none imo. It's easily avoided by vets, but is very bad for newbs -- and newbs is what the zone needs. One could argue that bursts are also one shot kills, but it's harder to kill someone from full nrg with the burst strength today (SVS was 550 per burst bullet; it's been 350 per burst bullet for a very long time now) -- it's more obvious to a newb how they died (many orange bullets!!!).
[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301417827' post='274144']
ok im a bit confused <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' />
My apologies if i misqoted, it wasnt intentional. But i didnt keep logs and copy paste our discussion.
I said 'there will never be changes made to turrets. I think you need to reduce turrets to 2 ppl (pilot and 1 gunner)', and you said 'not a chance. chaos has always had large turrets and always will'
Sounds remotely similar to me <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' /> never be changes made to turrets and chaos has always had large turrets and always will
We're not dealing with the same 80-100ppl zones anymore. And probably never will. Incidentally, the original zone never had bonuses, or flags, or any of the other things that were added MUCH later. I wasnt a regular player of chaos, but i dont remember those being part of the zone.
You wanted to hear what i thought, and i told you.
Post the rest of our discussion too if you want. I also asked about when we might see some of these ideas being implemented, and when the announcement would be (after you told me thered be an announcement prior to any changes). I cant remember your exact wording, but you told me not to 'badger' you and i seem to remember some veiled comment along the lines of i might not like the outcome ? <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' /> Your post of the logs will clarify if need be <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />Youre asking for our feedback and ideas, i dont see why we cant ask about a timeframe. You said it was still undecided and also that any changes will only be made at a reset (which im sure most of us already aware of anyway). Thats fine. But when will there be a decision ?
And its not like anything has to be PERMANENT <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> You can still try out various ideas to see how it goes <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> Obviously other changes were tried out to varying degrees of acceptance.[/quote]
You never said "there will never be changes made to turrets" or anything similar in our conversation - perhaps you thought it but did not state it. The choice between "[color="#1C2837"]chaos has always had large turrets and always will" and "no changes to turrets ever" is a false dichotomy -- there are many more possibilities. If you or anyone else is interested in learning more about what's possible, you can start here: [/color][url="http://www.minegoboom.com/server/ssos.html"]http://www.minegoboo...erver/ssos.html[/url] I'm of course willing to listen to any ideas on the topic.
[color="#1C2837"]I have many private conversations with people in the zone and out -- I value creativity, clarity of thought and the ability to express them coherently/concisely and also the ability to listen (just to name a few). I don't value being asked the same question multiple times when I've already answered it. You can ask about a timeframe, but if the answer is 'undecided' then that's the answer. <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> If you ask "when" and I say "undecided" and then you say "yes, but WHEN?" -- that's badgering to me. [/color][color="#1C2837"]And my further comment was not veiled in any way -- I said it would backfire. If you (or anyone) tries to get more info from me by doing that, you'll probably get less (via private conversation at least). Overall our conversation was a good one I think.[/color][color="#1C2837"]Also, fyi I did not say changes "only at a reset" I said "I usually do major changes at a reset" -- my positions are rarely absolute (ok so limiting turret size is an absolute <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />) and I'm always willing to listen to specific, coherent, concrete, and feasible ideas.[/color][color="#1C2837"]Thank you for the comment on "[/color]has to be PERMANENT" -- that's always my position.
--hallu