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[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301502297' post='274167']
Thx for clarifying Caer -- you help point out the fundamental game design problems of bonuses with regard to Chaos.
It brings up another possibility -- bonuses being reset based on some interval (session, day, week, reset)? Bonuses _need_ to be reset at some point. Thoughts on that?
--hallu
[/quote]
As ive said before, i dont really use bonuses .... thats why i green <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
But i think thats a good idea ...... id say reset everything at the official RESET. Itd make more sense. Just as your score, stats, etc all go to zero, so do your bonuses <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' />
I think Caer points out a major problem and how it could be used to abuse the system by saving up bonuses.
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[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301460623' post='274164']
[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301390369' post='274141']
Didn't you get the memo about the mine timer or read the news.txt file as to why the timer was reduced? Oh, wait, none of us go that memo, nevermind.
[/quote]
You might try rereading this comment you responded to over two weeks ago:
[url="http://forums.ssgn.net/topic/25596-current-rabbit-flag/page__view__findpost__p__273547"]http://forums.ssgn.n...post__p__273547[/url]
--hallu
[/quote]
You know as well as I that not everyone reads the forums and that changes should be discussed before they are put into place. You were the one that told me this was your philosophy ("lots of discussion before any changes were made").
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I would suggest taking them out altogether, but if they are to stay I wouldn't suggest resetting. The less time between resets the more likely you are to take the bonuses away from the player who doesn't play as often. Let them build up slowly. Maybe set a Bonus Cap. So players cant horde points. Just my 2 cents.
- PsyOps
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[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301545186' post='274190']
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301460623' post='274164']
[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301390369' post='274141']
Didn't you get the memo about the mine timer or read the news.txt file as to why the timer was reduced? Oh, wait, none of us go that memo, nevermind.
[/quote]
You might try rereading this comment you responded to over two weeks ago:
[url="http://forums.ssgn.net/topic/25596-current-rabbit-flag/page__view__findpost__p__273547"]http://forums.ssgn.n...post__p__273547[/url]
--hallu
[/quote]
You know as well as I that not everyone reads the forums and that changes should be discussed before they are put into place. You were the one that told me this was your philosophy ("lots of discussion before any changes were made").
[/quote]
Thats a good philosophy.
But if people arent participating, then how long should the discussion last ? Endless talk doesnt help anything to get done either ......
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04-01-2011, 05:51 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2011, 05:53 AM by Ethylene!.)
[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301585068' post='274196']
[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301545186' post='274190']
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301460623' post='274164']
[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301390369' post='274141']
Didn't you get the memo about the mine timer or read the news.txt file as to why the timer was reduced? Oh, wait, none of us go that memo, nevermind.
[/quote]
You might try rereading this comment you responded to over two weeks ago:
[url="http://forums.ssgn.net/topic/25596-current-rabbit-flag/page__view__findpost__p__273547"]http://forums.ssgn.n...post__p__273547[/url]
--hallu
[/quote]
You know as well as I that not everyone reads the forums and that changes should be discussed before they are put into place. You were the one that told me this was your philosophy ("lots of discussion before any changes were made").
[/quote]
Thats a good philosophy.
But if people arent participating, then how long should the discussion last ? Endless talk doesnt help anything to get done either ......
[/quote]
There was zero discussion on the topic of mines. It was only posted on the forums because I asked Hallu directly why the mine timer was changed. There was not much, if any, discussion in game except when I asked, and although I messaged Hallu he never answered me, the answer came from Nude for Satan (although I suspect it came from Hallu and through Nudes typing) and the intitial excuse was that the new flag game (which had weapons upgrades) at the time was the reason for changing the timer, but as we are seeing now it is really because Hallu thinks mine repping is driving away new players. But Hallu never intitiated this topic with the players, it just happened and it wasn't until pressed did he finally say why the mine timer was actaully changed. Personally I think mine repping is part of the game and is not even close to the reason why new players don't stay in Chaos Zone.
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04-01-2011, 06:42 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2011, 06:45 AM by PsyOps.)
I think the reason it was posted here was because Nude stepped up and decided to take point on all discussions related to setting changes. Hallu has been back for some time now, and since his return he has been systematically changing settings trying to find the best combo to better suit new players in the game. He has also created many new features that have been pretty cool.
Chaos has become a haven for all old timers, and because of that most new players (if any) get stomped out and never come back.
Bonuses were never properly tested IMO, I was never a hard core chaos player but thats what i got out of it. It seems to me that Bonuses are just making good players even better. Awarding better players with more of a curve seems like a bad idea.
No one's hand was forced here, If you have any suggestions post here and give your thoughts on the subject. Hallu will consider every suggestion, and has.
I'd like to add one more thing. Just because you see no activity or no response from hallu, do not make the mistake of assuming he is doing nothing. I may not be a great influence to any decision made in chaos, but i do hear 90% of whats going on behind the curtain. Everyone's perspective, thoughts, opinions, and actions get addressed. I am also not shy about telling him about the things i disagree with!
Go minereppers!
Down with flagging!
and finally do away with bonuses! (or cap them!)
- PsyOps
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04-01-2011, 06:49 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2011, 06:50 AM by Ethylene!.)
[quote name='PsyOps' timestamp='1301640175' post='274212']
I'd like to add one more thing. Just because you see no activity or no response from hallu, do not make the mistake of assuming he is doing nothing.
- PsyOps
[/quote]
I never said he was doing nothing, I said he has been making changes that no one knows about, and that's a bad thing.
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04-01-2011, 07:17 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2011, 07:19 AM by PsyOps.)
I should have been more clear about that. That comment was aimed at Gad. We had a discussion on Hallu, and how he never does anything for the zone.(according to gad)
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[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301640585' post='274213']
[quote name='PsyOps' timestamp='1301640175' post='274212']
I'd like to add one more thing. Just because you see no activity or no response from hallu, do not make the mistake of assuming he is doing nothing.
- PsyOps
[/quote]
I never said he was doing nothing, I said he has been making changes that no one knows about, and that's a bad thing.
[/quote]
BINGO ETH !!! and I don't agree with you alot. Alert the players of changes !!! It's only fair.
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[quote name='Ethylene!' timestamp='1301640585' post='274213']
[quote name='PsyOps' timestamp='1301640175' post='274212']
I'd like to add one more thing. Just because you see no activity or no response from hallu, do not make the mistake of assuming he is doing nothing.
- PsyOps
[/quote]
I never said he was doing nothing, I said he has been making changes that no one knows about, and that's a bad thing.
[/quote]
Some kind of notice would be good.
You never know which change may alter your playing style, and a notice would avoid ppl having to figure it out <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':happy:' />
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Grow a brain. You think Hallu will ever tell us whatââ¬â¢s happening behind his magical curtain? Only a retard like my self would think its only fair to tell people you are changing the BASIC settings of the zone BEFORE you do it. no no no... its much more fun to have a god complex and just mess with people and change the settings and sit back and see which of the stupid peons notices.
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Thats what these forums are for Gad <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' /> To give feedback, suggestions, etc .....
So far, the suggestion has been 'improved communication' about zone modifications.
<img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pardon.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':happy:' />
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[quote name='Jazz' timestamp='1301508971' post='274171']
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301502297' post='274167']
Thx for clarifying Caer -- you help point out the fundamental game design problems of bonuses with regard to Chaos.
It brings up another possibility -- bonuses being reset based on some interval (session, day, week, reset)? Bonuses _need_ to be reset at some point. Thoughts on that?
--hallu
[/quote]
As ive said before, i dont really use bonuses .... thats why i green <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':happy:' />
But i think thats a good idea ...... id say reset everything at the official RESET. Itd make more sense. Just as your score, stats, etc all go to zero, so do your bonuses <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />
I think Caer points out a major problem and how it could be used to abuse the system by saving up bonuses.
[/quote]
Not only how it could be... but how it has been <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
To some degree, I've done it. And one of Sika's turrets used way way waaaaaaaaay more bonuses than they earned. This was when !bonus devour was there too.
Oh. While on topic of bonuses, and Gadianton. He was whining about how the cost of !bonus defense was changed, along with his other usual lines of "it should remain unchanged for eternity". He seems to actively have forgotten that the CD release did not feature bonuses. Not that the CD release is in anyway holy, but it's a sort of a standard "SVS" setting <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />
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Plan of action:
Based on the feedback here (surprising to me in the number of people wanting no bonuses, but it makes sense to me since they break SVS game design, as do ranks) we'll try no bonuses for the next reset (starting this coming Wed).
The following reset I currently have these bonus changes, but welcome discussion and feedback (I'm sure there will be comments on both sides)
1) Bonuses always announced in pub chat (as a macro)
2) Bonuses available only in safe
3) New fullship bonus (as detailed above)
4) Reworked bonus pricing structure as follows (changes bolded):
AntiWarp - gives you antiwarp (1 Bonus)
Booster - 1 thor 1 burst (2 Bonuses)
Speed - 1 rocket 1 portal (2 Bonuses)
Defense - 1 brick 1 repel (10 Bonuses) // now also accepts british spelling: "defence"
Tuneup - +1 bomb lvl, +1 gun lvl (1 Bonus)
Xradar - 1 x-radar (1 Bonus)
Fullship - completely outfitted ship - full energy, all weapons, x, aw, etc. (3 Bonuses)
Rabbit - 1000 bty prize, arena announcement that you have the rabbit bonus (20 Bonuses)
Please keep in mind that we run these as an experiment to see how it actually affects play in the zone. SVS is NO bonuses or ranks. I think that if we keep bonuses for toys (as opposed to bonuses that get you ready to fight, such as fullship) they should be very hard to come by, and should not be decisive in obtaining any zone records, including Reset Winners, Streaks, etc.
Some comments on the changes above:
--Antiwarp -- no change
--Booster and Speed -- the fact that I could (with 80 bonuses) shoot off 120 bursts in a row without greening is game breaking imo. This at least cuts that back a bit, along with the safe-only restriction.
--Defense -- no change, but I think it completely breaks SVS game design that you can simply request the most powerful special in the game at any time. At least it would be obtainable in safe only now.
--Tuneup -- kind of useless since it was nerfed to not have nrg upgrades.
--xradar -- unchanged
--Fullship -- I think this is the best example of a good bonus that doesn't break the game design. Only useful when you unluckily spawn with a weak ship.
--Rabbit -- rabbit bty bonus has skewed the Ave numbers a lot. It used to mean a LOT to green to 1k bty (see SVS settings below). 2k was crazy high bty -- 8 hrs play to green it. It is kind of fun to see someone out there with that high bty, but rabbit has also been abused in terms of gifting etc. Raising the price (shouldn't be the same price as Defense anyway) will cut down on it's usage a bit and make it more 'special.'
I also plan on putting in Retail Release SVS settings for a day/weekend coming up soon (no ranks during that also). My aim is to do it this Saturday/Weekend.
--hallu
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[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301929532' post='274386']
Plan of action:
Based on the feedback here (surprising to me in the number of people wanting no bonuses, but it makes sense to me since they break SVS game design, as do ranks) we'll try no bonuses for the next reset (starting this coming Wed).
The following reset I currently have these bonus changes, but welcome discussion and feedback (I'm sure there will be comments on both sides)
1) Bonuses always announced in pub chat (as a macro)
2) Bonuses available only in safe
3) New fullship bonus (as detailed above)
4) Reworked bonus pricing structure as follows (changes bolded):
AntiWarp - gives you antiwarp (1 Bonus)
Booster - 1 thor 1 burst (2 Bonuses)
Speed - 1 rocket 1 portal (2 Bonuses)
Defense - 1 brick 1 repel (10 Bonuses) // now also accepts british spelling: "defence"
Tuneup - +1 bomb lvl, +1 gun lvl (1 Bonus)
Xradar - 1 x-radar (1 Bonus)
Fullship - completely outfitted ship - full energy, all weapons, x, aw, etc. (3 Bonuses)
Rabbit - 1000 bty prize, arena announcement that you have the rabbit bonus (20 Bonuses)
Please keep in mind that we run these as an experiment to see how it actually affects play in the zone. SVS is NO bonuses or ranks. I think that if we keep bonuses for toys (as opposed to bonuses that get you ready to fight, such as fullship) they should be very hard to come by, and should not be decisive in obtaining any zone records, including Reset Winners, Streaks, etc.
Some comments on the changes above:
--Antiwarp -- no change
--Booster and Speed -- the fact that I could (with 80 bonuses) shoot off 120 bursts in a row without greening is game breaking imo. This at least cuts that back a bit, along with the safe-only restriction.
--Defense -- no change, but I think it completely breaks SVS game design that you can simply request the most powerful special in the game at any time. At least it would be obtainable in safe only now.
--Tuneup -- kind of useless since it was nerfed to not have nrg upgrades.
--xradar -- unchanged
--Fullship -- I think this is the best example of a good bonus that doesn't break the game design. Only useful when you unluckily spawn with a weak ship.
--Rabbit -- rabbit bty bonus has skewed the Ave numbers a lot. It used to mean a LOT to green to 1k bty (see SVS settings below). 2k was crazy high bty -- 8 hrs play to green it. It is kind of fun to see someone out there with that high bty, but rabbit has also been abused in terms of gifting etc. Raising the price (shouldn't be the same price as Defense anyway) will cut down on it's usage a bit and make it more 'special.'
I also plan on putting in Retail Release SVS settings for a day/weekend coming up soon (no ranks during that also). My aim is to do it this Saturday/Weekend.
--hallu
[/quote]
Nooo don't do the retro weekend (saturday only please) until someone refits the old ships to 32x32 which is the current ship size. I have the gfx somewhere.. let's see
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[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301929532' post='274386']
Plan of action:
Based on the feedback here (surprising to me in the number of people wanting no bonuses, but it makes sense to me since they break SVS game design, as do ranks) we'll try no bonuses for the next reset (starting this coming Wed).
The following reset I currently have these bonus changes, but welcome discussion and feedback (I'm sure there will be comments on both sides)
1) Bonuses always announced in pub chat (as a macro)
2) Bonuses available only in safe
3) New fullship bonus (as detailed above)
4) Reworked bonus pricing structure as follows (changes bolded):
AntiWarp - gives you antiwarp (1 Bonus)
Booster - 1 thor 1 burst (2 Bonuses)
Speed - 1 rocket 1 portal (2 Bonuses)
Defense - 1 brick 1 repel (10 Bonuses) // now also accepts british spelling: " defence"
Tuneup - +1 bomb lvl, +1 gun lvl (1 Bonus)
Xradar - 1 x-radar (1 Bonus)
Fullship - completely outfitted ship - full energy, all weapons, x, aw, etc. (3 Bonuses)
Rabbit - 1000 bty prize, arena announcement that you have the rabbit bonus ( 20 Bonuses)
--hallu
[/quote]
The FULLSHIP bonus .... does it also give you the specials ? Or is it just the full upgrades to all the guns, energy, bombs, AW, x, cloak, stealth (which is what id prefer) ?
Personally, i think the TUNEUP bonus is the one the majority of ppl will use the most <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' /> If it included +1 energy as well, it would be perfect <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' />
But why are the BOOSTER and SPEED bonuses so cheap ??? <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' /> They only cost 2 bonus to acquire ? And yet DEFENCE is 10 bonus points to acquire ?
If DEFENCE is valued so high (and rightly so) because of its ability to block access or repel, then shouldnt the two most POWERFUL weapons and the two options that give you EXTRA speed or warp ALSO cost more ?? If repels and bricks are valued so highly, then shouldnt these other two bonuses be worth AT LEAST 5 bonus points or more ?!?! <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />
<img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' /> If im being chased, a burst and/or warp would be cheaper and as effective to help than repel or a wall ..... and if im rushing in, then a booster and thors/bursts will be a nice cheap option too for an attack.
There was ALOT of people suggesting that NO bonuses would be the better option. But the compromise was to increase the costs and to make them only available in a safe zones ?
In that case, I just think all of those SPECIALS should cost ALOT more. You were always supposed to GREEN for special weapons, and this just makes it even easier/lazier <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
And what about accumulating bonus points ? Is it going to be reset with each RESET or will we be able to keep amassing them indefinitely ? I would prefer a RESET <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
Incidentally, do you think NEW players will be buying alot of bonuses ? ...... nope. Its mostly going to be the regulars that get the advantage. <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pardon.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pardon:' /> The regular players already have a big enough advantage as it is without adding more to help skew things.
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[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1301929532' post='274386']
Plan of action:
Based on the feedback here (surprising to me in the number of people wanting no bonuses, but it makes sense to me since they break SVS game design, as do ranks) we'll try no bonuses for the next reset (starting this coming Wed).
The following reset I currently have these bonus changes, but welcome discussion and feedback (I'm sure there will be comments on both sides)
1) Bonuses always announced in pub chat (as a macro)
2) Bonuses available only in safe
3) New fullship bonus (as detailed above)
4) Reworked bonus pricing structure as follows (changes bolded):
AntiWarp - gives you antiwarp (1 Bonus)
Booster - 1 thor 1 burst (2 Bonuses)
Speed - 1 rocket 1 portal (2 Bonuses)
Defense - 1 brick 1 repel (10 Bonuses) // now also accepts british spelling: "defence"
Tuneup - +1 bomb lvl, +1 gun lvl (1 Bonus)
Xradar - 1 x-radar (1 Bonus)
Fullship - completely outfitted ship - full energy, all weapons, x, aw, etc. (3 Bonuses)
Rabbit - 1000 bty prize, arena announcement that you have the rabbit bonus (20 Bonuses)
Please keep in mind that we run these as an experiment to see how it actually affects play in the zone. SVS is NO bonuses or ranks. I think that if we keep bonuses for toys (as opposed to bonuses that get you ready to fight, such as fullship) they should be very hard to come by, and should not be decisive in obtaining any zone records, including Reset Winners, Streaks, etc.
Some comments on the changes above:
--Antiwarp -- no change
--Booster and Speed -- the fact that I could (with 80 bonuses) shoot off 120 bursts in a row without greening is game breaking imo. This at least cuts that back a bit, along with the safe-only restriction.
--Defense -- no change, but I think it completely breaks SVS game design that you can simply request the most powerful special in the game at any time. At least it would be obtainable in safe only now.
--Tuneup -- kind of useless since it was nerfed to not have nrg upgrades.
--xradar -- unchanged
--Fullship -- I think this is the best example of a good bonus that doesn't break the game design. Only useful when you unluckily spawn with a weak ship.
--Rabbit -- rabbit bty bonus has skewed the Ave numbers a lot. It used to mean a LOT to green to 1k bty (see SVS settings below). 2k was crazy high bty -- 8 hrs play to green it. It is kind of fun to see someone out there with that high bty, but rabbit has also been abused in terms of gifting etc. Raising the price (shouldn't be the same price as Defense anyway) will cut down on it's usage a bit and make it more 'special.'
I also plan on putting in Retail Release SVS settings for a day/weekend coming up soon (no ranks during that also). My aim is to do it this Saturday/Weekend.
--hallu
[/quote]
You wont see me playing this game then with these stupid changes. See you on the flip side Hallu way to kill the zone.
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Jazz: !bonus fullship does not give you specials. Its kind of a ramped up version of !tuneup. It moves your Max Nrg to the max your ship can have, your bullets and bombs to their max levels, enables bouncing bullets and multi in case you dont have them, stealth, x and aw if you dont already have them. Not sure if it guarantees you prox. Probably does.
Considering there's actually a bit of substance to all that, I reckon it should cost 4 bonuses, not 3. A spawning pilot missing only one or two of these things, eg they are full except max nrg is 1600 and otherwise they're ok, they shouldn't find this a handy bonus. It should really only be attractive for when you spawn and the game just sold you a complete lemon of a ship.
Nothing bonus-wise should be money for jam. They are super-power-ups. They should feel like you've spent as much cash (bonus) buying them as you would have spent time and effort, greening them.
One of the three most dangerous people in Subspace.
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04-19-2011, 11:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2011, 11:57 PM by hook-ups.)
Making bonuses only available to use in safe is a great option IMO. I don't think they should be more expensive.
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04-26-2011, 04:58 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2011, 05:00 PM by Capt ARGH!.)
[quote name='PsyOps' timestamp='1301554778' post='274192']
I would suggest taking them out altogether, but if they are to stay I wouldn't suggest resetting. The less time between resets the more likely you are to take the bonuses away from the player who doesn't play as often. Let them build up slowly. Maybe set a Bonus Cap. So players cant horde points. Just my 2 cents.
- PsyOps
[/quote]
+1
i too think this. i'm in sporadically and don't usually have more than 6 at most. really bonuses have little impact on the game one way or another, they're just a neat and fun add on IMO. if they were ditched it would make the game just a little bit more shit.
[quote name='hook-ups' timestamp='1303257403' post='274777']
Making bonuses only available to use in safe is a great option IMO. I don't think they should be more expensive.
[/quote]
i'm ok with bonuses only available in safe. but the effort to fly to safe is too much for me. in fact i hardly ever use safe, i'd rather just float there and get killed when i need to leave for a minute. the only bonus i'm using now is the fullstatus and that's because the new spawing system sucks-ass. a real step back. it was better how it was, when you started with 50 bty and had full status except energy. then at least you didnt have to keep hitting ?status to see if your ship is still a turd. i mean HOW FUKING FUN IS using ?status.
just give us fullstatus on spawn already.
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